Unpacking ‘Good Quests,’ Christianity, and Caviar Bumps

The mission of Silicon Valley’s entrepreneurs has long been to change the world. But, how do you know whether a pursuit is good or bad? ACTS17 collective, a Christian faith-based group of tech entrepreneurs, says a strong relationship with God is the answer. Today on the show, we talk about the people promoting a faith-based approach to tech, we learn what a “good quest” is,  and we ask what impact religion will have on the type of ventures the valley pursues in the future.

You can follow Michael Calore on Bluesky at @snackfight, Lauren Goode on Bluesky at @laurengoode, and Zoë Schiffer on Bluesky at @zoeschiffer. Write to us at uncannyvalley@wired.com.

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Transcript

Note: This is an automated transcript, which may contain errors.

Michael Calore: Question for the group. When was the last time you went to church?

Zoë Schiffer: That’s a big question. I’m Jewish, so I think we go to a temple, not church. And I went pretty recently, for the High Holidays. Lauren?

Michael Calore: Very nice.

Lauren Goode: Lovely. I think I went when I was on vacation. I like popping into churches when I’m traveling to different places.

Michael Calore: Nice. Light a little candle?

Lauren Goode: Yeah, just look at the architecture.

Zoë Schiffer: That’s cool. What about you, Mike?

Lauren Goode: Yeah. What about you?

Michael Calore: I swear I was listening to what you were both saying, but while you were talking, while also listening, I was also racking my brain to try and remember the last time that I was in a church, and I cannot remember the last time. I really just do not know.

Zoë Schiffer: That’s totally fair.

Michael Calore: Well, Silicon Valley has its own relationship with God, and that is what we’re going to be talking about this week. Is everybody ready?

Zoë Schiffer: I’m very ready.

Lauren Goode: I’m ready for confession time.

Michael Calore: This is WIRED’s Uncanny Valley, a show about the people power and influence of Silicon Valley. I’m Michael Calore, Director of Consumer Tech and Culture here at WIRED.

Lauren Goode: I’m Lauren Goode. I’m a senior writer at WIRED.

Zoë Schiffer: And I’m Zoe Schiffer WIRED’s, Director of Business and Industry.

Michael Calore: Power, money and Influence. This has long been part of the allure for many in the tech world, but for a growing group in the Valley, there’s a new path to success, God. Today, we’re talking about the Silicon Valley Christians who are promoting a faith-based approach to innovation. We’ll drop in on a San Francisco party where tech bigwigs and influential figures talk business and the Bible, we’ll learn about, quote, unquote, “Good quests,” and we’ll ask the big question, what impact will religion have on the type of ventures the Valley pursues in the future? So Lauren, tell us about this party you went to.

Lauren Goode: Which one? I go to so many parties.

Michael Calore: Well, let’s start with the party in New Mexico.

Lauren Goode: Yes. OK. That one. To be totally clear, I was not at this party. It’s been written about, and I’ve heard about it directly from one of the hosts. This was a three-day birthday party held in New Mexico in November of 2023. And the theme of it was The Roast, the Toast and the Holy Ghost.

Zoë Schiffer: Oh my gosh. Say what you will about tech people, but they know how to make a party theme.

Lauren Goode: So this party was for the 40th birthday of someone named Trae Stephens, who is a well-known venture capitalist and entrepreneur. WIRED his written about him before. Our colleague, Steven Levy, did a big interview with Trae last year. And this party, according to Trae’s wife, Michelle, was designed to be a playoff of Kanye West’s Sunday Service. They booked a DJ who remixes worship songs, but also it was like a party, right? They said they served caviar bumps, there was breakfast pizza, there was mimosas. A good time was to be had. But what really kind of stood out from this party is that one of Trae’s business partners, Peter Thiel, gave a fire side chat that had all of the attendees talking.

Michael Calore: OK.

Zoë Schiffer: I honestly did not know that Peter Thiel was religious at all until I started talking to you about this.

Michael Calore: And we should back up and say a little bit about Peter Thiel, and about who he is and why he’s important.

Lauren Goode: Yeah, for the uninitiated, Peter Thiel is another well-known venture capitalist, and he’s known for many reasons. He’s one of the original founders of PayPal, the so-called PayPal Mafia. He’s an early investor in Facebook, so he’s incredibly wealthy. In media circles, he’s infamous for having backed the lawsuit that put Gawker Media out of business. In politics, he’s been a very vocal supporter of Donald Trump, and Peter Thiel’s network of right-wing allies has been infiltrating the Trump administration. And to your point, Zoe, he’s also religious. This sermon that he gave at Trae Stephens’s birthday party has been described as, “A fire side chat on miracles and forgiveness.” And it was after this fire side chat that he gave, that” according to Michelle Stephens, the wife of Trae, people were coming up to her and saying, I didn’t know Peter was a Christian. How can you be gay and a billionaire and be Christian?” And even something like, “I didn’t know you could be smart in a Christian, “Michelle says that people said to her.

Michael Calore: Oh, no.

Lauren Goode: And then they started asking, “And where do you go to church in San Francisco?”

Michael Calore: So where do they go to church in San Francisco?

Zoë Schiffer: They are not talking about doing yoga at Grace Cathedral.

Lauren Goode: They go to a church that’s called Epic Church, which has been around for several years in San Francisco. But according to the pastor there, it has grown in attendance in recent years. But in addition to the Stephens’s being members at this church, and other people in the tech community, Michelle Stephens, who is an entrepreneur, was entrepreneurial and decided to start a non-profit that hosts gatherings where people come and give talks, kind of like the one that Peter Thiel gave at that birthday party. And I ended up going to one of their events recently. It was really interesting. They call this group the ACTS, that’s A-C-T-S 17 Collective, and it’s an acronym, it stands for Acknowledging Christ in Technology and Society.

Michael Calore: And these are ticketed talks?

Lauren Goode: They’re ticketed talks.

Michael Calore: OK.

Lauren Goode: Fifty bucks and you have a direct line to God. He’s on your speed dial.

Zoë Schiffer: Do they feel more like parties or more like church?

Lauren Goode: Well, this is a great question, because the event that I went to recently in San Francisco is in a private home that is a converted church. It was in this room… You’re nodding ’cause I think you know exactly where it is. Right?

Michael Calore: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Zoë Schiffer: Is it the one by Dolores?

Lauren Goode: Yes.

Zoë Schiffer: It is? Oh my gosh, I’ve always been so curious about that space.

Lauren Goode: It’s beautiful. There’s a big cavernous room that has a large arched window in the back on an exposed brick wall, and high ceilings and soundproofing along the walls, wood paneling. So when you are in it, you’re like, “I feel like I’m in a church,” except that it was low-key party vibes. The DJ was spinning some light beats, ambient music. There were bartenders, there’s food.

Zoë Schiffer: Caviar or no caviar?

Lauren Goode: There were name badges. There were no caviar bumps.

Zoë Schiffer: Bummer.

Lauren Goode: Such a bummer. Yeah.

Michael Calore: And what was the talk?

Lauren Goode: So this talk actually featured Trae Stephens himself. The ACTS 17 Collective has done a few previous talks with other people, but this one was Trae being interviewed by a fellow venture capitalist, who appropriately, was named Christian. And they were talking about this concept of good quests, which is something that Trae has written about before. He and a co-writer published an article in 2022 about the idea of good quests. Good quests is a framework for thinking about the work that you do. And let’s just assume you’re a techie, you’re an entrepreneur, you’re a venture capitalist, you’re a startup person, and you’re trying to find meaning through your work. And good quests is a way to find and do work that feels purposeful or meaningful in some way. And that means you are on a good quest. It also means that there are bad quests.

Michael Calore: I see.

Lauren Goode: Which is a lot of what they talked about.

Michael Calore: So, the good quests and bad quests thing sounds like a big topic that we should talk about, but I want to put a pin in it for the moment because I want to talk about the business connections that happen at these meetings. I’m assuming that these meetings are not just for people to get together and listen to conversations about God, but they’re probably meetings where people network. And is there a hope that Peter Thiel will show up at these meetings?

Lauren Goode: Sorry, I shouldn’t laugh.

Zoë Schiffer: It was certainly Lauren’s hope.

Lauren Goode: Yeah. Well, I have a couple questions for him. He has spoken at these events before, so sure, networking is definitely a part of it. And one of the things that Act 17 has said is that they’re not only inviting Christians to these events, they’re inviting people of all denominations. And even if you’re an atheist, you can join. They want to get the conversation started. Some people are there because they genuinely want to find their faith again or be able to express it freely. And I think other people are there for the hang and for the networking, and to rub elbows with people like Trae Stephens or someone like Garry Tan from Y Combinator, who was at this recent event. And I actually think that they’re OK with that, because at events like these, the themes of religion and work are commingled so much that sometimes it’s indistinguishable to fully understand what it is they’re talking about.

Michael Calore: Yeah. And Peter Thiel’s Faith was such a big catalyst for this movement that the Stephens’s have started. And I just wonder if you can get into a little bit about what connection with Peter Thiel is with this group and this couple?

Lauren Goode: Yeah, so it’s actually quite a big network of Peter Thiel-related companies and investments. So, Peter Thiel runs a venture capital firm called Founders Fund, and Trae Stephens is a partner there. Trae also co-founded Anduril, which is a defense tech company that builds weapons like autonomous drones and underwater vessels. Peter Thiel’s Founders Fund is a big investor in Anduril. Trae Stephens was also an early employee at Palantir. Palantir is a data intelligence company that Peter Thiel co-founded with someone named Alex Karp. I mentioned Garry Tan earlier. He was also an early employee at Palantir. Now, he has his own venture capital firm and he runs Y Combinator, but he has been involved in Act 17 events. So this non-profit and their event series was partly inspired by Peter Thiel and just the talk that he gave, but also it’s a pretty tight network of really high-profile techies who also happen to be linked to these tech firms that make defense tech for the government who are involved in these talks.

Michael Calore: It is such an interesting juxtaposition that these folks who are coming together to talk about their faith, and to talk about Christian values and promoting them in technology, are also building systems that support more.

Zoë Schiffer: They don’t see those things as in conflict, I don’t think, from what I’ve read. Alex Karp has talked about similar themes. He has a new book out, and he said specifically that the fact that so many smart people are working on social media apps when they could be working on, he doesn’t say the word good quests, but it definitely has that flavor, is in his mind a big problem.

Lauren Goode: Say more about that, Zoe, because Trae talked a lot about this, too. The consultants at McKinsey and people who are making photo sharing apps are getting a really bad rap these days amongst this crowd. And I want to hear more about what Karp has been saying about that.

Zoë Schiffer: Yeah. He talks a lot about how the idea that all societies are equal in his mind is simply not true. That we should think of the United States as unique and worthy of protecting and preserving in terms of our culture. And so, if you believe that working on national defense is a really important vocation, a calling even. Just while we’re talking about these big name people and their relationship with religion, he was doing a Q & A with Barry Weiss at a university recently, and one of the students asked, “What could we do to help the working class?” And he answered with a bunch of different suggestions, but he said his number one suggestion was introducing them to religion, which I thought was quite interesting.

Lauren Goode: It’s almost like is there a tension here? Which is I what you’re getting at Mike?

Michael Calore: Yeah.

Lauren Goode: In espousing your beliefs and your religion, but also using it as an interesting framework, where in some cases you’re casting a moral judgment upon the jobs that people do in their day-to-day lives or to support their families, to live, basically, right? And it’s particularly interesting when it’s coming from these powerful figures in technology who happen to build tools and services and apps that are used by the federal government and defense, right? Because you might hold up one and say, “Well, that seems incongruous with doing good things for society.” And what’s interesting now is that these figures are expressing these ideological and religious beliefs and infusing the Silicon Valley hustle culture with them.

Michael Calore: And we’ll have to talk more about that culture, but first we need to take a break. So let’s do that and come right back. Welcome back to Uncanny Valley. So Lauren, when you spoke to Michelle Stephens for your story, she mentioned that she had felt tokenized as a Christian in Silicon Valley. And Christianity was sort of a dirty word in the Valley for a long time. Right?

Lauren Goode: I don’t know if I would describe it so much as a dirty word as I would that I’ve heard from people that they maybe have felt uncomfortable before in the highly agnostic Silicon Valley, talking openly in professional settings about their faith. I spoke to one entrepreneur and venture capitalist at the event who said he’s been working in the Valley since 2005, and he’s always been Christian, but he never really felt like he could wear it on his sleeve before. And more recently, and he specifically said since the pandemic, he’s been a little bit more open about it. And through that, has been pleasantly surprised to see other people say, “Oh, hey, I’m a Christian too.” But I think Silicon Valley in general, you’re right, has long been perceived as agnostic and even atheistic. Some of the data, however, shows that people are actually more rooted in religion that you would think, because Silicon like a big geographical place. It’s not just the tech industry.

Michael Calore: So, you’re saying that this large contingent of humanity is not a monolith?

Lauren Goode: Right, exactly. They’re all wearing hoodies and Apple watches, but they’re not all the same.

Michael Calore: Is there any data about what the breakdown of Christians and non-Christians are in Silicon Valley?

Lauren Goode: Yeah, that’s a good question. And we have to zoom out a little bit, because the most recent data we have from Pew Research looks at religion in California and religion in the San Francisco metro area, but not, quote, unquote, “Silicon Valley specifically.” In the San Francisco metro area, 46% of adults identify as Christian, and that’s only down slightly from a decade ago. But an increasing number of people say they are religiously unaffiliated. That’s at 42% compared with 35% a decade ago. And then in California, broadly, the number of people who identify with other religions, like Judaism and Islam, has largely remained the same over the past decade. So, in short, there are a fair number of Christians in the San Francisco metro area, but I would say the biggest sort of counterforce to that is agnosticism. And Zoe, I want to hear your thoughts on this too, because I know we’ve had some conversations about the alternative things that people do for self-discovery in Silicon Valley, this idea of like, “Well, I have a practice, like a meditation practice,” or, “I have certain rituals that I do.” And they find community in different places, but they’re not necessarily rooted in religion with a capital R.

Zoë Schiffer: Right. Yeah. I do think the kind of psychedelic experimentation, the Burning Man of it all can serve a similar function, giving people a sense of belonging, something outside of themselves that they’re engaged with, and all of those things can be really meaningful.

Michael Calore: And how do folks like the Stephens and the ACTS 17 crowd feel about these spiritual pursuits that are non-Christian, non-Western spiritual pursuits?

Lauren Goode: The sense that I get is that these things are not mutually exclusive. You could go on your shroom trips or your workshops at Esalen, or I don’t know, whatever other sort of-

Michael Calore: Oh, yeah. Yeah, I know. Yeah.

Lauren Goode: Yeah, we’re all going, “Yes. Yes, yes.” All of the agnostic practices. And that doesn’t exclude you from having a religious practice that is rooted in historical texts or some sort of established God, or has an official church, I think. They’re saying, at least initially, “Our arms are open. Anyone can come to these events.” I’m willing to bet that of the 200 plus people who were there at the event that I went to, that some of them have probably dabbled in other rituals.

Zoë Schiffer: Extracurricular activities.

Lauren Goode: That’s right.

Michael Calore: They’ve been to the psytrance rave and taken the molly, and talked about their app.

Lauren Goode: Sure. And talked about their app. Yeah, exactly. They’re still talking about their apps. And I don’t even think that the two should necessarily be conflated. It’s just that those kinds of hobbies or practices tend to define a certain aspect of Silicon Valley culture, maybe more so than religion has.

Zoë Schiffer: I think that that makes sense. There’s a saying that I heard a lot in chatting with people who engage in more of the drug-type pursuits, that these substances will get you in the room, but they won’t let you stay. So maybe religion lets you stay.

Lauren Goode: Oh, that’s kind of interesting. So it’s like you do a guided ketamine trip and then you tumble down the block to the church in Dolores Park?

Zoë Schiffer: Yes, and?

Lauren Goode: Yes, and?

Michael Calore: Yes, and?

Lauren Goode: ACTS 17 doesn’t seem to be pushing that away. What Michelle Stephens has said is that she feels like the industry just has too much emphasis on money and power and wealth, and these are my words, that those in a sense are the more powerful drugs, and the more concerning drugs. And that religion provides a different kind of avenue to success, and that success is that relationship you have with God.

Zoë Schiffer: Alex Karp also mentioned something similar. He has said that, “You just need enough money to not have to think about money, and that the other pursuits are more important.”

Lauren Goode: Ah, right. So I’m assuming that means Alex Karp just has just enough money and he gave the rest of it away?

Zoë Schiffer: Yeah, for sure. For sure.

Michael Calore: Yeah, probably. Didn’t ACTS 17 member, Garry Tan, Tweet about this?

Lauren Goode: Yeah, he did last year, and he linked to the article that was written in The San Francisco Standard. He said, “LSD and shrooms won’t fill the God-shaped hole in your heart. Guess what might?” I’m guessing the answer is God, right? Do I get an ice cream cone for guessing correctly? Right. Do people still do LSD?

Michael Calore: Yes, people still do it.

Zoë Schiffer: Yep.

Lauren Goode: This is this how uncool I am, Uncanny Valley listeners.

Michael Calore: There’s nothing cool about drugs, Lauren.

Lauren Goode: OK. That’s right, we were raised in the D.A.R.E. era.

Michael Calore: Let’s take another break and we’ll come right back. Welcome back to Uncanny Valley. We talked earlier about the good quest versus the bad quest. It sounds like a sitcom, but it’s central to the philosophy of how the Christians that we’re talking about in Silicon Valley approach the work that they do. What is a good quest?

Lauren Goode: Yeah, and this borrows from gaming culture too. When I think about a good quest, I think about playing Legends of Zelda or something.

Michael Calore: Is it like a side quest is a bad quest?

Lauren Goode: Yeah, right, exactly. You can get sidetracked by a side quest, I think is the idea. But Trae Stephens had written an article, along with an entrepreneur named Markie Wagner. It was published in 2022, and it created this framework for thinking about what you do for a living and whether or not it falls, and where it falls on the matrix. Is it a good quest? Is it a bad quest? Is it something that feels good but is really easy to do and isn’t solving a big problem? Is it something that’s hard but feels bad? Or is it something’s hard to do but feels good because you’re fixing big problems? And the way that Trae has described it, and also some of the peers in his network who we’ve talked about on this show, is that if you’re just making another photo app, you’re a brilliant engineer, but you’re using your mind space and your talents to build a photo app, it’s probably not a good quest. For whatever reason, he also took aim a few times at McKinsey Consultants during the event I went to. He just said, “They just sort of show up on your college campus and they pick some of the best and brightest minds and say, ‘Go be a management consultant.'” And he considers that not to be a good quest. So Trae said during the ACTS 17 talk that I went to, “I’m literally an arms dealer.” And when he said that, the crowd sort of laughed, and I think people were surprised by how candid he was about that, but that’s what his company makes. They make weapons. And he said, “It’s an unusual calling. It’s not a calling for everyone, but it is my calling.” And so he was sort of applying the language or the vernacular of a vocation to what he does for a living, and then sort of putting that on the good quest part of the matrix, because it’s a hard thing to do and he’s solving a hard problem. But he is also mentioned things like manufacturing and advances in medicine, and that there are other things that you can use your talents for that are considered good quests.

Michael Calore: Right. If we boil down the idea of a good quest to something that is good for humanity and something that promotes Christian values, I think it’s difficult for a lot of people to square the fact that you’re doing good in the world with the fact that you’re building systems of killing people. Right?

Zoë Schiffer: But I think that’s why the nationalism part is so important to this, because they’re not saying, “We should be doing good for humanity.” It seems like a lot of these people are saying, “We should be doing good for the United States of America.”

Lauren Goode: Right. My understanding, based on reading Alex Carp’s very long essay in The Atlantic, is that he really believes we should be building up America as a technological republic. And I think that’s what you’re saying, Zoe.

Zoë Schiffer: Yeah. Which again, to Mike’s point, it might seem like these things aren’t in conflict unless you have that nationalistic angle woven in.

Lauren Goode: It’s interesting, because when you think about the teachings of the Bible, you think about helping those less fortunate than you, helping the poor, welcoming people in, being of service. So you don’t necessarily think about weapons. It may seem like it’s incongruous with being of service. And I think that that is a very valid point to raise. My understanding of it, which is not a justification or an explanation for it, is in listening to Trae Steven’s talk at the Act 17 event, it seemed like his interpretation of building God’s kingdom on Earth was pretty literal. It was, “What has God asked us to do? Thy kingdom come, thy will be done. We will build the kingdom.” And that means literally building. It makes me think of the Silicon Valley ethos around, “It’s time to build. Build, build, build. Make stuff.”

Michael Calore: Yeah. And for a lot of people who are not religious, what is central to that ethos is that, “We’re doing good in the world.” And maybe for a Christian with that ethos, it’s centered around, “We’re doing God’s will by building these things, by making this our society.” So, in other words, you can justify a lot of things by saying, “Well, it’s OK, because we have God on our side,” to paraphrase Bob Dylan. That sounds like a slippery slope to me.

Lauren Goode: I think you are absolutely right. And Trae Stephens himself said, “I think people can convince themselves that anything is a good quest.” He was referring to someone who came up to him and was pitching an NFT marketplace. That, to him, was not a good quest. But yeah, I think that’s the thing. You can convince yourself that what you’re doing is good, even if you’re harming people in some way. And just to pull it back even further, what is one of the things we’ve heard from Silicon Valley entrepreneurs for decades now? What are they going to do with the thing they’re building? They’re going to, what, change the world?

Michael Calore: Change the world.

Lauren Goode: Right. And they have, they continue to. It’s not always in a good way, but who makes the moral judgment of what’s good?

Michael Calore: Justice has to play into it. People can feel like if they’re delivering justice in the world, then that’s a good thing. And maybe that’s why weapons systems feel like a good quest, because it’s like, “Well, there’s good guys and there’s bad guys, and it’s pretty cut and dry. And if we can help eradicate the bad guys, then that’s a good quest.” So that, in a sense, is making the world a better place for people of that mindset. But then again, who is to decide who is the good guy, who is the bad guy? Also, I will just point out at this moment that I think Jesus Christ taught us that the best way to solve conflict is through nonviolent means. So, if Jesus was a pacifist, how would he feel about all of this? I don’t know. I’m not Jesus.

Lauren Goode: Sounds like you’re ready to go back to church, Mike.

Michael Calore: Maybe. I have a lot of questions. Maybe that’s what church is all about. It’s about answering these questions.

Lauren Goode: Zoe, how does this stand out to you when you consider this in the context of your faith?

Zoë Schiffer: I think it’s really interesting. I don’t know how. I’m still thinking through the Alex Karp arguments on all of this, but I think just from a basic standpoint, that having religion as one component of a larger kind of life can be really beneficial for people. And I think there is a problem with a lot of people feeling like their lives are meaningless, and so to the extent that this can help imbue their lives with meaning. Or prompt them to stop doing a job that feels soul-sucking and find something that is more of a good quest, something that’s more meaningful, I think that’s great. All of these things can be used in negative or positive ways, although that’s clearly a judgment call, but I think there’s potential for good.

Lauren Goode: It’ll be interesting to see whether or not this is something that really takes root in Silicon Valley, aside from hearing directly from pastors or people in the community, “Oh, it seems like there’s growing interest, attendance is rising.” Those are all certainly strong signs. But Silicon Valley has been going through this big shift over the past few years, politically, ideologically, artificially, if you want to throw artificial intelligence into that too. And I’m just so curious to see where religion dovetails with that.

Michael Calore: Yeah. Yeah, and building God’s kingdom, what that looks like-

Lauren Goode: What that looks like.

Michael Calore: … for here.

Lauren Goode: Is that AI? I mean, really.

Michael Calore: Is our next God AI?

Lauren Goode: I don’t think she is.

Zoë Schiffer: I see what you did there. I liked it.

Lauren Goode: Thank you.

Michael Calore: Thanks for listening to Uncanny Valley. If you like what you heard today, make sure to follow our show and rate it on your podcast app of choice. If you’d like to get in touch with us about any questions, comments, show suggestions, or suggestions for which churches we should attend, write to us at uncannyvalley@wired.com. Today’s show is produced by Kyana Moghadam, Amar Lal at Macrosound mixed this episode. Paige Oamek fact checked this episode. Jordan Bell is our Executive Producer, Katie Drummond is WIRED’s Global Editorial Director, and Chris Bannon is the Head of Global Audio.